Podcast: Parenting Young Adults: From Manager to Mentor

As an award-winning speaker, author, social media figure, hazing prevention expert, host of the Fraternity Foodie Podcast, and CEO of Greek University, Michael Ayalon is a recognized thought leader in the realms of fraternity and sorority life, business leadership, and higher education. He has headlined keynote presentations on over 200 college campuses in 40 states to help solve problems such as hazing, alcohol and drug abuse, and apathy in college student organizations. Mike is able to take lessons learned from helping to build companies from startup to over $25 Million in annual sales, as well as best practices as the Former Executive Director of Sigma Pi Fraternity with 120 chapters and over 115,000 members, to create dynamic, positive, and results-driven keynotes and workshops that transform people’s lives.

Mike and his team published five books for Fraternity and Sorority leaders, including the From Letters to Leaders book series and “Using AI to Grow Your Fraternity or Sorority”. He is a graduate of the School of Management at the University at Buffalo, and has a Master’s Degree from Cumberland University in Public Service Management. Mike is currently pursuing a Doctorate in Assessment, Learning, and Student Success (Higher Education Concentration) at Middle Tennessee State University and will defend on January 22, 2025. The title of his dissertation is “Early Warning Signs of Hazing in College Fraternities and Sororities”.

Our host, Gabe Howard, is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, “Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations,” available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. Gabe is also the host of the “Inside Bipolar” podcast with Dr. Nicole Washington.

Gabe makes his home in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. He lives with his supportive wife, Kendall, and a Miniature Schnauzer dog that he never wanted, but now can’t imagine life without. To book Gabe for your next event or learn more about him, please visit gabehoward.com.

Producer’s Note: Please be mindful that this transcript has been computer generated and therefore may contain inaccuracies and grammar errors. Thank you.

Announcer: You’re listening to Inside Mental Health: A Psych Central Podcast where experts share experiences and the latest thinking on mental health and psychology. Here’s your host, Gabe Howard.

Gabe Howard: Welcome to the podcast, everybody. I’m your host, Gabe Howard. Calling into the show today, we have Michael Ayalon. Michael is an award winning speaker, author, social media figure and hazing prevention expert. He’s the host of the Fraternity Foodie podcast and the CEO of Greek University. Michael is a recognized thought leader in the realms of fraternity and sorority life, business leadership, and higher education. Michael, with all of those accolades, welcome to the podcast.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Thanks so much for having me, Gabe, I appreciate it.

Gabe Howard: Hey, it is my absolute pleasure, because today we’re going to be discussing how to transition from a parent child relationship involving an adult and a minor into a parent child relationship involving two adults. Now, it’s a delicate balance for parents because no matter the age, we’re always going to look at any child that we had a hand in raising as well, a child. But, Michael, I got to ask you, what are some psychological shifts that parents need to make when their children transition into adulthood?

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: This is a great question and I have a lot of experience with it personally. I’ll tell you that I am a dad to two Gen Z kids, so my daughter is over at Rice University in Houston, Texas, and my son is over at Middle Tennessee State University in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. And I’ve actually gone through this with my own children, and I want to share some of the learning lessons that I’ve picked up. I’m also the former executive director of a major national fraternity. So often parents would contact me of our members and have various issues with their children or what they wanted from our organization. So I got to interact with a lot of parents all over the country. And so what I will tell you is this is that, number one, we need to shift as a parent from being a manager to being a mentor. So basically, your old role as your child is growing up, we manage nearly every aspect of a child’s life. So scheduling, decision making, problem solving in your new role as they transition into adulthood. Now you’re a mentor, so now you’re offering guidance rather than direction. So you want your child to take the lead while you provide support when that is needed. So understand that overall, what we’re trying to say here is that your child needs a coach, not a referee. You want to let them learn from mistakes and they will make mistakes.

Gabe Howard: I’m going to draw this back, and I’m going to say that our average listener probably has a 19 year old children, 20 year old children, college age children. I think by the time your kids reach 30 and 40, you’ve either A figured it out or B you’re not changing. So I imagine that our average listener, they’re sort of teetering in this gray area where they acknowledge that their child is an adult, right? They’re aware of it, but it doesn’t sit well with them. They’re just like, I don’t know, you’re still kind of stupid. And I’m just, you know, I’m. I’m being as honest as I can, right? Because your college age is kind of a weird age. They are legally adults, right? They don’t have to listen to you. They can do whatever they want. But especially if they are actually in college, parents are still footing the bill. There’s still a lot of stereotypical child parent things going on. So it’s it’s weird, right? How how do you reckon with this? Because it’s not just a switch. You can’t just turn it off

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Right.

Gabe Howard: One day. They’re not babies. We have to save. And the next day they are our equals.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Yeah.

Gabe Howard: What’s the transition?

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: So you want to transition from authoritative communication to more collaborative discussions with your children. So that means that you’re going to show respect for their opinions even if it differs from yours. And you also want to practice what we call active listening in order to build trust with them and also to show empathy as well. And we want to support their emotional intelligence. So recognize that they are building their emotional and their social lives independently. So you want to avoid being overly involved in their personal or social conflicts, and you offer advice only when your child is asking for that advice. And so essentially what we’re doing is we’re redefining our relationship with our kids. Appreciate that. This is a phase. It’s an opportunity to form a new kind of relationship with your child that’s rooted in mutual respect and shared experiences. So you want to find ways to connect with your kids as individuals by exploring common interests as an example, and really just having adult conversations. And part of this is managing your own transition. So it’s very interesting because both my wife and I are now empty nesters after having the kids in the house for 20 years. So it’s okay as a parent to acknowledge your feelings of loss, worry, or your sense of identity, which is changing as your role starts to shift. So as a parent now, we can invest in our own personal goals. We can invest in hobbies or friendships and avoid overidentifying with your role as a parent.

Gabe Howard: I really like what you’re saying, and I agree with it. And I got to tell you, as an almost 50 year old man, I think, wow, why do children not understand what their parents are going through? You know, the example that you used being an empty nester after raising kids for 20 years, right. That’s got to have an emotional impact. Letting your children go into the world unsupervised and alone, and hoping that you gave them the skills that they’re going to be okay. Right? Even going to bed and not knowing if they’re safe because after all, they’re out there living their own lives. But for the vast majority of their life up until that point, you knew when they were tucked into little bed and all safe in your home that you created. So you’re going through a lot that they don’t understand. And a lot of my parents listening, they’re probably like, yeah, they don’t understand me. But then I talk to the kids, right? And they’re like, Mom and Dad don’t understand. You know, they’re micromanaging me. They’re telling me what to do. They’re trying to prevent me from making mistakes. I’m trying to live my life in the world that’s out there, and they’re giving me advice that’s 20 years old. They’re like, well, back in my day, we started with nothing. And, you know, I’m looking at $100,000 in a negative. And they think that’s the same. Right. So I’m hearing a lot of parents and children both have completely different vantage points. And neither side is really putting themselves in the shoes of the other. Now we’re not talking to the kids, Michael. Right. They’re not listening. We’re only talking to the parents. How can the parents better understand what their children are going through so that their time, effort, energy, advice, and this transition is most productive? Because I have to call out my parents. We give a lot of stupid advice based on what we went through at 18 for a world that no longer exists.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Yeah. So I think we have to understand the developmental changes that are going on within our children. So recognize that the brain continues developing well into the mid 20s for our children, particularly in areas like decision making and impulse control. So as a parent, you have to be patient and provide a safety net for your children without undermining their growth. So how do we do that? We can encourage lifelong learning. So I just went and I got my doctorate degree just offended a couple of weeks ago. That’s encouraging my children to pursue growth opportunities and explore their own passions, which might be very different than mine. And so I think you have to show some curiosity and enthusiasm for your children’s evolving interests, even if they are unfamiliar to you, and set some healthy boundaries as well. So respect your child’s privacy and establish boundaries that promote mutual respect. Now you can ensure that your support is helpful without being intrusive.

Gabe Howard: You’ve brought up respect a few times. How important is it to show respect to our children?

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: I, you know, listen, I think that’s absolutely critical. You want to create a safe space. So that way you can have open dialog with your children. So that means you want to approach conversations with them with a non-judgmental and a supportive mindset. So that way you can let them know that they can share their thoughts without fear of criticism or overreaction by the parent, and you also want to avoid pressuring them to share immediately and respect their timing when they’re ready to come around and have that discussion. And so you can practice active listening. So focus on what your child is saying without interrupting them. And you can use nonverbal cues like nodding and maintaining eye contact to show that you’re being attentive. And you can also paraphrase or summarize their words to confirm that you’re understanding what they’re saying to you. And so an example would be what I hear you saying is. And you can also ask open questions so you can encourage meaningful discussions by asking questions that would invite elaboration. For example, what are you most excited about right now? Or you can say, how can I best support you in this phase of life? Or you can say something like, what’s something you’ve been thinking about or working on recently? So in essence, we’re avoiding all of the yes and no or leading questions which can feel very restrictive to your children.

Gabe Howard: Okay, but. But what if they’re just wrong? Right? Right. Like like I mean sincerely, we see it. I agree, I, I 100% agree. If your child is going to fall into a ravine and cause, you know, death, dismemberment. Right. If they are going to do something that could get them arrested. Right? Pull out all the stops, I get it. Right. But but more often than not, the bar is not that high, right? What they’re actually going to do is cost themselves a semester, cost themselves some money, and maybe make a mistake in a relationship. Hell, maybe pay too much for a car because they don’t want to listen to Mom and Dad’s negotiation advice because they’ve got an app and the app is going to solve the day, right? Right. These are the kinds of mistakes that you’re saying it’s okay to let your kids make. But but is it? I mean, I know they’re wrong, Michael. I know they’re wrong. They’re going to pay too much for the car, too much for the house there dating the wrong person and there going to be in a codependent, miserable relationship. The writing is on the wall. If they just listen to me, their life will be better and I know it. And your advice is to be respectful, to sit on the sidelines and ask if they want advice. That’s a tall order. How does any parent watch their child do something that’s going to make them suffer? Even if that suffering in the grand scheme of things is in fact relatively minor.

Sponsor Break

Gabe Howard: And we’re back with Michael Ayalon discussing how to treat your adult children like adults.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Let me give you an example. So my daughter is in college right now and as a freshman at Rice, and she decided that she wants to get a nose piercing. Okay. This is not something that I necessarily would do. I worry about things like interviews. Et cetera. She wants to work for the government in the future. So the question is, what would a hiring manager think about that? But I, as a parent, have to acknowledge my children’s independence so I can show respect for their autonomy by allowing them to make decisions, even if it’s different from what I would have chosen. And you can use affirming language such as I trust your judgment, or you can say you’re capable of handling this, but I’m here if you need me to help. So essentially what I’m doing is I’m transitioning from being a problem solver to being a supporter. So instead of immediately offering solutions, I’m asking them how they would like me to support them. I could say things like, do you want advice or would you like me to just listen? I can say something like, what do you think would be the next step? So essentially I’m validating their feelings rather than dismissing or minimizing them?

Gabe Howard: You know, one of the things that’s interesting about what you just said, do you want advice or do you just want me to listen? I had a marriage therapist on this exact same show about a year ago who gave the exact same advice,

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Yes.

Gabe Howard: Right? Except in relationships. Right? Like, you know, when your husband or wife comes home or your live in partner and just wants to complain about work and you go into problem solving mode. It causes conflict

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Yes.

Gabe Howard: Because it’s like, look, I just wanted to gripe, right? I just wanted to vent. I just wanted somebody to be on my side. And now you’re criticizing me. And then, of course, you’re saying I wasn’t criticizing you. I was trying to help. So now you’re offended and the whole thing spirals.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Yeah. [Laughter]

Gabe Howard: But I got to ask you, Michael, is this even worth it? Shouldn’t my children just listen to me? I mean, honestly, right? Wouldn’t they just be better off if they took my advice. Did what? I said. Their life would go smooth. They would be happy. I mean, really, isn’t this a father knows best? Mothers know best. I mean, honestly, we’ve been there, done that. We have the experience. Just do what we say. Isn’t that the best advice? I mean, sincerely, since wouldn’t children be better off to just let us lead them around by the proverbial nose ring?

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Sure, but, I mean, remember your own upbringing. Remember when you were a child and understand that some of the most important lessons that you’ve learned in life happen to you through experience? It wasn’t that somebody told you something. Yeah. Ideally, the college students who are listening right now go out and find a mentor. Go out and find somebody who’s been there and done that in order to get all of your goals in life, and it would be great if they listened to 100% of those things. But in reality, I know for myself as a child, I didn’t listen to everything that my parents said, and I had to learn some really tough lessons on my own. That’s just the way that life works, and that’s okay. So I would just say, you know, understand that these challenges often take time to address with your child. I would resist. Resist the urge to push them towards a particular timeline or a particular solution. I would respect their boundaries. So avoid prying into their private thoughts or their therapy sessions. As an example, just focus as a parent on being present and dependable rather than being intrusive.

Gabe Howard: Michael, some of the stuff that we’ve been talking about is an easier said than done scenario. How do parents navigate the fine line between offering support and allowing that independence?

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Here are some key phrases that you can use to allow that independence. Here’s an example. You don’t have to go through this alone. I’m here for you or it’s okay not to be okay. How can I help you? Or I love you and I’m proud of you for facing this. Or lastly, how about this one? Let me know if there’s anything you need. So these are all key phrases that you can use as a parent in order to spur that independent mindset that you’re looking for.

Gabe Howard: Michael, I want to ask you, does it get easier? Right? I mean, I mean, you know, it’s hard to look at an 18 year old and see them as an adult, right? It’s hard to look at a 21 year old and see them as an adult. But is it easier to look at a 30 year old? Is it easier to look at a 40 year old? Does this turn at some point and it gets easier? Please tell me it gets easier.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: It does get easier. Just like anything else, it gets easier with practice. So the more that you implement everything that we talked about here on this podcast initially, it’s going to be very difficult. I’m by no means do I want to assume that this is easy. This is not easy stuff. This is stuff that took years and years of practice. I went to therapy on my own to do my own work in order to get to this space where I am right now and have that healthy relationship with my children. But I will tell you this this gets easier. The older your children get, the easier this is to respect their boundaries, to be observant without hovering over them, and encouraging healthy habits with your children, as well as seeking support for yourself. All of these things get easier with time. Just like anything else, it just takes some practice.

Gabe Howard: You know, Michael, as we wind down this interview, one of the things that I think about is my mom’s reaction to me telling her that I was going to be a podcaster. I mean, I, you know, I was in my 30s and I said to my mom, I said, I’m starting a podcast, I’m going to make a living doing a podcast. And she was like, you’re you’re insane. She’s like, this is not how you make a living. You need to get a real job. And when I started the podcast, it was bleeding money, right? I had the same story that everybody who has ever started a podcast, you know, trying to launch a speaking career, has. Right? You’ve got to buy all the equipment. You’re constantly on social media. You’re just you’re spending your own money to give free speeches for the exposure. You know, you’re constantly giving interviews that you’re not paid for and over. And my mom, just every time I saw her, was like, I told you so. I told you so. I told you so. And then one day it hit right. It hit. The show has been on for ten plus years. It’s profitable. It has. It has sponsors. It was it was, you know, eventually purchased by Healthline Media, you know, the biggest health website in the world, right.

Gabe Howard: And I’m making a living and my mom’s like, I was wrong. I’m glad you didn’t listen to me. And I’m not pointing this out as a story from where my mom was wrong. I’m sharing this as a story because let’s say that I would have trusted my mom, right? Let’s say that I would have believed her and listened to her. So when I think of the kids in my life, right when I when I think of the children that I’m in charge of and I think, oh, that’s a that’s a bad idea. I think, yeah, this is exactly how my mom felt about my podcast. And I better take a step back, because I know this is a really lofty way of saying this, but I don’t want to be on the wrong side of a kid’s history. Right? I there’s a little piece of me that’s like, hey, my mom didn’t believe in me, and that kind of sucks a little. I know it’s complicated. I’m mature, it’s nuanced. There’s a gray area, but I don’t want that. So I’m just going to sit back and hope for the best. But like you said, Michael and I think it’s really powerful. So your kid screws up. Really? Like in the grand scheme of things, is this that big of a deal?

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Gabe. I’m a storyteller, and just like you, I had a similar experience that you experienced with your mom. You know, my dad really never showed that kind of confidence. And some of my dreams. As an example, I was interviewing to become the executive director of my national fraternity that has 120,000 members. And before I went on the interview, I called my dad looking for some wisdom, and he said, you know, how could you be the best out of 120,000 people?

Gabe Howard: Wow. Wow. That’s, that’s.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Yeah. And I’m like, oh, great, dad, thanks.

Gabe Howard: [Laughter]

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Thanks so much for that confidence that you’re giving me. And sure enough, I went into the interview. I did absolutely amazing. And sure enough, I got the job and became the executive director of the national fraternity, did that job for three years. And then after that I said, you know, to my dad, one day I said, dad, you know, I think I’m taking I want to take a different direction and I want to become a public speaker. And I want to, you know, entertain audiences of 5000 college students. And my dad said to me, I don’t know why anybody would want to listen to you for an hour. So, so, I mean, God bless his honesty.

Gabe Howard: Wow. The support is just dripping off the man.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: It’s just dripping off. And of course, as kids, like, we want our parents to, like, completely support us. We, you know, we want to get their approval like that is so important to us as children. But if I took my dad’s advice on either one of those things, I would have never, ever achieved my dreams in life. So you really have to trust your children. Trust. Trust their intuition because they’re capable of far more than any one of us wants to believe. And if they’re chasing their dreams, who are we to rob them of their dreams? So that is my final pitch to you, Gabe.

Gabe Howard: Michael, I could not agree with you more. I mean, the reality is, is it’s very difficult to admit that that, that that we as, as caregivers, as parents, as people in charge of children don’t know everything because we start off knowing everything, right? We really do. When, when, when we hold that baby in our arms, the toddlers, the five year old, we we know it all. But that slowly fades and we’ve certainly got to get on board with that. You’ve given people a lot of skills, you’ve given people a lot to think about, and I hope people understand that this is difficult, right? You’re not going to you’re not going to, you know, listen to this podcast and just be an expert on it. I mean, it’s going to take work. You’re going to mess up. You’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to have to say to your kids, hey, maybe I didn’t handle this the best way, or you know what? Now that I hear Gabe and Michael’s parents, you know, talk about how they didn’t support them, maybe, maybe, maybe I maybe I don’t want to be that person in somebody else’s story, especially your child’s story. So I. I hope that connects as well. Michael, thank you so much for being here. Where can folks find you online?

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: Absolutely. Gabe. They can find me at GreekUniversity.org. We have a total of 28 speakers that help college students all over the country. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. Just look up Doctor Michael and the last name is spelled A Y A L O N. Happy to connect with anybody there.

Gabe Howard: Michael, thank you so much for being here.

Michael R. Ayalon, PhD: My pleasure.

Gabe Howard: And I want to give a great big thank you to all of our listeners. My name is Gabe Howard, and I’m an award-winning public speaker who could be available for your next event. I also wrote the book “Mental Illness Is an Asshole and Other Observations,” which you can get on Amazon. However, you can grab a signed copy with free show swag, or learn more about me, just by heading over to my website, gabehoward.com. Wherever you downloaded this episode, please follow or subscribe to the show. It is absolutely free and you don’t want to miss a thing. And listen up, can you do me a favor? Share the show. Share your favorite episode on social media. Share this episode on social media. Send somebody an email. Send somebody a text message. Mention it in a support group. Sharing the show with the people you know is how we’re going to grow. I will see everybody next time on Inside Mental Health.

Announcer: You’ve been listening to Inside Mental Health: A Psych Central Podcast from Healthline Media. Have a topic or guest suggestion? E-mail us at show@psychcentral.com. Previous episodes can be found at psychcentral.com/show or on your favorite podcast player. Thank you for listening.